Every so often on the Desert Hipster Website a reader gets out of line and criticizes them:
As always, he was roundly scolded and mocked for his heterodoxy, and that was that. Of course different tubing produces different ride quality, and of course the reviewers over at the Desert Hipster Website have the finely-tuned scranuses that are able to discern it. Anyone who feels differently is a bitter curmudgeon, case closed, the end.
I, however, think they’re both wrong, or at least not completely right. In the case of the commenter, I know he’s wrong for two reasons. This:
And this:
Certainly the commenter’s right in that you’re not going to feel any vertical flex sitting on top of a triangle. However, the Teledyne Titan (made before they really figured out how to build bikes properly out of titanium) flexed obviously and disconcertingly in pretty much every other direction. No doubt a lot of this had to do with the fork, also titanium, which you could see deflecting like someone whose name has been found in the Epstein flight logs, but judging from the chain rub the frame flexed plenty too. Some bikes you think maybe you feel some flex or some dampening happening, but you’re not really even sure if you’re feeling it, or if so where it’s coming from:
But with the Teledyne Titan there was no doubt, and it felt almost comically sproingy.
As for the Y-Foil, it absolutely flexes vertically and dampens vibration. Granted, that’s not exactly a fair example, since it’s not a traditional diamond frame. Still, that bike’s 27 years old, so it’s not exactly crazy to think that in the ensuing years they’ve figured out how to make UCI-compliant crabon frames that are flexy in one direction and not the other. Is it meaningful or discernible when you’re just sitting on the bike and rolling along a flat surface? Probably not. And they still arrive at it by trickery, like elastomers and notches under the seatpost and stuff. But when you factor in all the various permutations and undulations of riding a racing bicycle (sprinting, climbing, diving into turns at speed, rocking the bike back and forth), no doubt the material and how it’s applied is one of the things that informs the way the bike is going to feel.
So based on the above, I’d agree the commenter is incorrect. BUT. These are extreme examples. Nobody in the business of selling bikes today–whether it’s Giant, or some non-binary custom-builder-of-the-moment in Portland–is going to build a bike that behaves like that Teledyne. Rather, they’re all going to fall within a certain range of what’s adequately strong and adequately light. So the question then becomes whether you can not only discern the specific ride quality of the tubing, as the Desert Hipster Website reviewer claims (the comment at the top of this post was in response to a review of a certain Ritchey frame), but also do so through the handlebars and the saddle and the tires and all that other stuff–in an age in which no influencer would be caught dead on tires narrower than 35mm, no less.
And I’m going to go ahead and say that you can’t. (Or at least that the degree to which you can is probably greatly exaggerated.)
Of course, in order to really know for sure you’d need do to a blind test with multiple bikes that are made from different tubing but are otherwise identical–which, as most people know, someone did:
And here was the result:
And that was on tires no wider than your thumb that were probably inflated to 120psi.
Given this, is it humanly possible to compare the tubing on this bike…
…and this bike?
They sound different when I flick them with my fingernail. People on the Internet will say stuff like “Rivendell’s frames are [x] and Waterford’s frames are [y].” But is one really smoother or is the other stiffer? Are you freaking kidding me? The things you feel immediately are the the tires (by far the most immediate), and the differences between the saddles, and the way the controls feel in your hands:
And yes, there’s certainly a difference in stifness between different handlebars and stems:
And of course these two bikes are different enough it terms of geometry and fit that they ride differently:
Do they ride shockingly, mind-blowingly differently? They do not. I think if most of us with multiple bikes are being honest, when we switch from one bike to another, the differences are extremely pronounced for about five minutes, then we just get used to it and forget all about it:
But they are different–most noticeably in fit, tire clearance, wheelbase, and aesthetic finish. And by extension, they’re different in terms of how you can set them up, which is what’s most important. But of all the differences I can discern, it would be a real stretch to attribute any of them to the tubing.
Same goes for this bike…
And this bike:
I’m pretty sure they’re both made from different sets of Columbus tubing, and I’m absolutely sure that I can’t tell the difference in ride quality between those two sets of tubing. I can tell the two bikes are sized differently and are geared differently, but by far the most dramatic transformation in ride quality happened when I went from the original tires on the Cervino to 30mm high-end Vittoria tubulars.
So sure, in extreme cases–such as with the Teledyne–you’re undoubtedly feeling the frame material. Damon Rinard said that while it may or may not be possible for a frame to be too stiff, it can certainly be too flexy:
Is it possible for a frame to be too flexible? I believe it is. Under a hard effort by the rider, a flexible frame actually allows the wheels to come out of plane with respect to each other. You can see it in any sprint if you can get a view from the front or behind. All frames do this to some extent, but large or powerful riders may prefer a stiffer frame to minimize this effect.
And a too-flexible frame can be hard to handle in some riding situations. For instance, on high-speed descents and in corners, an overly flexible frame can weave around enough to become a handful to keep under control. In other words, flexible frames can be scary! I once read a quote attributed to Andy Hampsten to the effect that the only thing scarier than descending on a TVT frame was climbing without one! A very flexible frame can be disconcerting enough to cause a rider to back off in some situations where a stiffer frame would allow him to keep up speed.
By that logic, yes, I’m also prepared to accept it’s possible to strike a balance between flexy and too flexy, and even that something special happens when a frame (whether by accident or because it’s been built just for you) is “just right.” But it’s hard to reconcile this with my experience of most bikes feeling “just right” once I’ve taken the time to set them up the way I want them, and with the immediate changes that happen when I switch certain parts, especially tires–and the wider the tire gets, the harder it is to believe you’re feeling much if anything from the frame. (Much less the insane assertion that square taper spindles and titanium cranks reduce ankle fatigue and are conducive to “all-day riding comfort,” a claim made by the same site.) Is there a difference between walking on a wooden floor and a concrete one? Yes. Is the difference less noticeable in a pair of ugly-ass Hokas? Yes. Is it impossible to notice when you’re in bed? Also yes–though if you’re humping especially vigorously I wouldn’t rule it out completely. And I suspect it’s the same thing with frame tubing.
Most importantly, it’s incredibly foolhardy to rule out the psychological effects bikes have on bike dorks. We’re like drunk bros at a strip club around these things, and are generally in no psychological condition to objectively evaluate their attributes, least of all the ride quality of the tubing. I’ve been riding the Milwaukee for 10 years now, and apart from tire changes, the most dramatic change I experienced in ride quality was when it went from black…
…to red (or technically it’s copper):
I rode the thing for weeks straight after it came back with its new finish and I couldn’t believe it was the same bike. But it was very much the same bike, and I didn’t even change the parts. (Yes, the parts are different in the two photos, but they were the same before and after the paint.)
I even have a secret bike none of you know about. (A lady has to have some secrets.) It’s made by someone who’s Kind Of A Big Deal:
Is it everything it’s cracked up to be? Well…yes, yes it is. But it’s also impossible to forget what you’re riding when you’re riding it, and to trust your feelings about it. It’s sort of like hanging out with a celebrity. Am I experiencing the person? Or am I experiencing my idea of the person? Am I having fun? Or is what I’m really enjoying the idea that someone might see me with this person?
It’s probably how Lance Armstrong felt when he hung out with me:
He was so naive.